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What You’ll Discover About Badass Leadership:
- How to be the badass leader people want to work with
- How badass leadership empower other by being appropriately vulnerable
- Why badass leadership requires self-awareness
- How badass leadership names the elephant in the room
- PLUS so much more!
Guest: David Wood
After life as a consulting actuary to Fortune 100 Companies, David built the world’s largest coaching business, becoming #1 on Google for “life coaching”.
He believes the tough conversations we avoid are our doorways to confidence, success and even love – in both work and life. David coaches high-performing entrepreneurs, executives and teams – and even prison inmates – to amazing results AND connection. One conversation at a time.
Ferreting out those important conversations is the topic of his latest book, Mouse in the Room: Because the Elephant isn’t Alone
Related Resources:
If you liked this interview, you might also enjoy our other Leadership and Management as well as Communications episodes.
Contact David and connect with him on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube.
Learn more about David’s business
Discover David’s Tough Talks podcast
Check out his latest book: Mouse in the Room: Because the Elephant isn’t Alone
Check out David’s FREE download at MouseInTheRoom (the link is in the top left corner)
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The Most Badass Leadership Skill You Need to Succeed with David Wood
Badass leadership may sound dangerous, but today’s guest says playing it safe is actually more dangerous. Find out why when we come back.
This is Business Confidential Now with Hanna Hasl-Kelchner helping you see business issues hiding in plain view that matter to your bottom line.
Welcome to Business Confidential Now. The weekly podcast for smart executives, managers and entrepreneurs looking to improve business performance and their bottom line. I’m your host, Hanna Hasl-Kelchner, and I’ve got a super guest for you today. He’s David Wood, author of “Mouse in the Room: Because the Elephant Isn’t Alone.” Love that title.
After life as a consulting actuary to Fortune 100 companies, Dave built the world’s largest coaching business, becoming number one on Google for the term “life coaching”. He’s taught the importance of having a laser focus to leaders at Facebook Square, Warner Brothers, to name a few. He says playing it safe can be dangerous.
So let’s find out more, especially how far he thinks we should go to be a badass leader. Welcome to Business Confidential Now, David.
Well, thank you very much, Hanna.
David, I’m a bit confused, and I’m hoping that you can help me out by explaining what you please mean by “badass leadership”. Because we know that a bad leader is not good. We know that an ass as a leader is not good. So, if you put the two together, it sounds like, “Oh, my God! This is a leader from hell.” So, please help me understand what you mean by “badass leadership”.
Well, yes, it’s ironic. When you put those two words together, you get a good word. So, a badass is someone you don’t want to mess with, but more appropriately, I think in today’s lingo, badass is just something really good, really rocking. You’re cooking.
So, I think that what most of us want to be as a leader is be the kind of leader that people would want to follow. And I say, be the badass leader that you would follow. And that’s what gets me interested.
Aha. Well, I think the term gets a lot of people interested because who wouldn’t want to be a badass leader? But let’s drill down into that a little bit and what makes a badass leader?
Well, I think one thing is we want people that we can trust. And humans in general, not just leaders, we tend not to reveal what’s happening inside us. And it’s not hard to work out why. If you go back to your childhood, you – most of us, when we were upset, we might get in trouble for crying. When we were angry, that wasn’t usually praised.
“Oh, you’re angry. Tell me more about that. How are you feeling? You want to beat a pillow?” That wasn’t my upbringing. So we learn that certain behaviors are going to work out well for us, and certain behaviors are not good, like confessing to a crime. I brought the cup that might not have gone well for us. So we learn to kind of present a front to the world and then we might reveal ourselves, maybe when we’re having a few drinks, or when we’re with someone where we really feel safe.
But, I wrote a book to go contrary to that, because I’ve found I’ve been blessed by having so many good coaches in my life. And I found that over and over reveal what’s really happening. I can be an emotion I’m having, it could be a desire I have, it could be something I’m putting up with, but I’m willing to take a risk and artfully name that, then life gets better. People trust me more, people get where I’m coming from. If I’m trying to create something, people want to follow me more. And so revealing that true experience is one of the principles of badass leadership. And I wrote a book called “Mouse in the Room: Because the Elephant Isn’t Alone.”
We all know about addressing the elephant in the room. You see it, I see it, no one’s saying anything. All right, that’s weird when we should address the elephant in the room. But what if it’s something that only you know about? What if you have a desire or a vision for the company you haven’t shared yet, or what if you feel like the meetings are dragging and no one said anything about it? These are mice in the room, and we should name that mouse.
We should name that mouse. Well, I’ve got a mouse question for you.
Okay.
You say that we’re taught not to be vulnerable and share our feelings quite as much. And in my experience, there are a lot of leaders out there who go by the mantra, never let them see you sweat. So…
Right.
…if they want to be badass leaders and they would be one part of that phrase or the other, but if they want to step it up a notch, how do you suggest they get over that in order to become more vulnerable or to ferret out the mice in the room?
This is a really – I love that you brought this up because you don’t want to go too far in the direction I’m talking about. I’m not talking about just revealing all of your wounds while you’re bleeding from them. That’s not a good idea. It was great advice I got once because I’m a motivational speaker and one of my coaches said, you don’t reveal a wound while you’re still bleeding.
So, if you are – let’s suppose you’re a CEO and you’re absolutely freaking out, I’m not saying you go into the board meeting and say, “Well, I’m freaking out! We’re heading off a cliff! The economy’s terrible! We’re tanking. I’ve got no plan! Help!” No. You do that with your coach. You do that with your therapist. You do that with your closest friends. And then you pull yourself together and you might go into the meeting and say something like, “Some of you may be scared in this current economic climate. I don’t blame you. Sometimes I am too. But we’ve got the beginnings of a plan, and together we’re going to work it out.” So, you can reveal – you don’t have to reveal everything, but you can actually say a name. “Some of you may be scared, and sometimes I am too.”
But, once you start bleeding from whatever you’re going through, then you can name it in a way that empowers people so they don’t feel they have to save you.
And you just reminded me of this – so I’m talking about not going too far. But another plug for going at least in that direction, I once had a friend come up to me and say, “You know, I’ve just had this massive revelation. I am needy right now.” I’d think, say more about it. You said, “I’m needy. I’m really needy. I need validation. I need lots of touch and care and I am needy. And I’ve finally realized that I’m okay with that.” And I was blown away. I was like, “Wow, you can say it.” My estimation of him didn’t go down at all. It went up and I totally got where he was coming from, and I was inspired to be able to name that myself from time to time.
Now, again, you might not do that at work and say, “I’m feeling really needy and tell everyone until you stop.” No. You say that in an appropriate context, but at work you might be able to say, “Hey, you might notice that I’m feeling really tired. I am. I didn’t sleep last night. I was up thinking about this project, and I am excited about this meeting.” So you can name it but in a way that people don’t feel they have to save you from it.
Well, it takes quite a bit of self-awareness for somebody to name it, because I think a lot of people get defensive. “It’s not me, it’s them. It’s the circumstances. It’s a situation.” You know, they have a list of excuses. For a while, it’s okay for them to feel the way they do without naming the feeling.
And this is one of the big reasons why we’re not naming our mice. We don’t know what they are. And I used to have a teacher say to us all, “Be in your body. Stop being in your head.” And I didn’t know what – I didn’t have any frame of reference, what he was talking about, and the reason I didn’t is because I was always in my head. I was checked out of what’s happening in my body, so I wouldn’t even know if some tension was building up or maybe if there was some tiredness, because I just keep on pushing. And over the years I now tend to check in more, and so now I have some more awareness of what’s happening in my body.
“Oh, I notice my stomach’s clenching up a little bit hearing you speak. And I think what’s happening is I’m feeling some concern for you.” That might be an example of what’s happening. So we need to check in with our body. We need to check in with our desires. And so maybe I can offer an exercise if people are wondering, “Hang on, what are my mice?” I would get a piece of paper and just write down anybody that you have an issue with could be your partner to be a business partner.
It could be a kid, could be a parent, a cousin. I bet you’ve got family where you’ve got an issue. Maybe you complain about them. And complaint is a really good signal that there’s a mouse. So you might be saying, “Oh, I just couldn’t stand Bill doing this.” or, “I’m just not happy with work.” Okay, great.
Write down who you got an issue with and then, next to their name, write down whatever your complaint is. It might be, “I wish Bill would give me more attention.” Or, “This coworker is always late to meetings.” Write down these things and that might tell you what your mouse is. And if not, if it’s still not clear, I’ve got a free download at mouseintheroom.com. But you have to look top left because people go, “Wait, where is it? Where is it?” Top left – mouseintheroom.com. It’s a free download and it will help you with any person, any issue, get clear on what your mouse is.
It might be a desire mouse. “I want more money at work.” It might be a toleration mouse. “I don’t like this person being late.” or “I feel like I’m not – I don’t get credit when I do a good job.” or “I wish my team was more self-directed instead of coming to me to solve problems.”
Right. And to toleration mouse. And then once you’ve got your mouse clear, that one pager will help you map out how to go on to communicate it. So you’ve brought up the number one reason I think we’re not naming mice. We don’t know we’re upset, but we don’t know what our mice are, so first you get clear. Then the second reason we don’t name mice and reveal who we are to the world, is we think it’s going to be a train wreck because when we were younger, when we tried it out, it didn’t go very well because we didn’t have a blueprint. We didn’t have that roadmap. So, this one-pager will give you a roadmap and you can even take it in your hand to the person and say, “Hey, yeah, I wanted to chat a little bit. You’ve got a couple of minutes?” and you can say, “I wrote down some notes because I didn’t want to forget anything.” and you can follow that roadmap. I had one teacher write to me and say, “I’m batting four for four. I’ve tried this recipe, this roadmap four times now, and each time it’s gone super well.” So, it works.
Well. Thank you for offering that link. And if anybody didn’t catch that, no worries. We’re going to have that link on the episode page at BusinessConfidentialRadio.com. So that will make it convenient for you so you can go to it.
Now, I am intrigued by this roadmap. So let’s say I got my piece of paper and I got my issues and I got mice. So, what happens next with the mice? Do I put out a little peanut butter trap?
Well, once you know what it is. So give me a work example. What’s something you could be having at work? It feels awkward to go and say to somebody.
All right, here’s a common one. A boss does a poor job of meeting management. Ten would people be in the room but two do all the talking, and the others are looking at each other like, “Why am I here?”
Okay. Great. So let’s say you’re one of the people in the room and you feel like you’d like to say more, but you can’t really get a word in edgewise. What the sheet will have you do is firstly write down what’s your issue? What’s your complaint? What are you feeling? So you write it down. “I want to be able to speak up more in meetings. I want to feel like there’s more space.”
Okay, great. And then what’s your request? Do you have a request? This is really good. When you want to change something instead of just complaining, give your boss something they can do that would move in the direction you want to go. So the requests might be, “Hey, I notice when we have meetings I feel hesitant to speak up. Is Brad and Jane, they’ve been here longer and they’re at a higher level than me and they speak and I help them. Sometimes there’s stuff I want to say, and the meeting goes so quickly and then it’s done.” And so firstly, you want to ask, “Is it okay if I’ve got something, if I speak up there?”
Well, that might be all you need. Is it okay? It might be on you to commit to. I’m just going to put my hand up and say, “Hey, I want to say this. I want to insert.” But, you might also have a request. “If I do speak up, could you give me some space to do so? Because it’s not easy for me. It’s kind of on my edge.”
And in fact, if I was coaching you on this, I might encourage you to speak up in a meetings and say, “I notice I have a mouse,” You might not say, “I have a mouse” if you’ve got a mouse.
“I notice that I’m not speaking up in these meetings because you guys have been here for so long, but I do have some things sometimes I’d like to say. Is it okay if I put up my hand and I say something?” And then people can give you feedback. They might say, “Yeah, of course.” Or they might say, “Well, it depends. Sometimes it might be – if we’re pressed for time, it might not be a good point. Bring it to someone later, but other times it is good.” But you can find out by generating it yourself. And one of the beauties of this form, or just addressing your mice in general, you might realize that most mice are mirror mice. Meaning most mice be gold just for you to realize, “Oh, I didn’t even see that I want to speak up more. I feel intimidated, and maybe all it needs. I need to raise my hand more and take a shot. It’s on me.”
So, that was a great example you gave me, because everything really comes back to a mirror mouse. Ultimately, everything we can do something with. But sometimes there’s a request of other people, “Hey, would you be willing to stop doing that because this is the impact it’s having on me. And if you’re willing to stop doing that, here’s the good thing that I think would come out of it.” And you don’t have to remember all this, listeners, because it’s in the one pager. It’s all there in one simple page so that – because I don’t expect anyone to take all this stuff and remember it. This is why we don’t name our mice. But with the one pager, I really hope it’s a game changer for you.
Well, I think it can be a game changer, David, and I really appreciate you working through the example and how people can reframe it, and some tips, some practical tips on how to move forward to conquer and just stomp that mice out.
Well, yes. And on that note, I do recommend we don’t stomp our mice. It’s a very natural inclination. So we’ve got – we’re feeling angry. We might want to stamp out that mouse and get rid of that. Well, if you do want to get rid of the mouse, I find the best way is to be friends with it.
Because if we want to squish down our nervousness. Let’s say we’re going to go and – I’m an actor now in Los Angeles, and so acting is quite new for me, and I’m going up on stage almost every week. In fact, tonight I’ll be going up on stage in a theater a couple of times, and I’m going to be nervous. But if we’re trying to stomp the mouse, it just seems to get stronger and they grow.
So, what I recommend is using this form, we make friends with the mouse. We acknowledge it. We name it. And that might be all we need. Just, in fact, sometimes let’s say you’re on a date with someone and you’re feeling a bit nervous, sometimes just naming it. “You know, I notice I’m a little nervous. I haven’t been on a date in a while, and I’m kind of hoping this goes well. So, I just wanted to name that. And you don’t have to do anything about it. I find just naming it often helps, helps me settle.”
Same thing, golden tip on stage. You can walk out there and say, “Well, I notice I’m feeling a little nervous. You guys are very scary. And one thing that helps me settle is taking a deep breath. And if you’d like to take a deep breath with me, that’d be great. Let’s do one now.” Deep breath in. Your breath with everyone. Deep breath out. Ah! Always helps. And great thing to do in meetings, too.
So you can name it and sometimes that’s all you’ve got to do. Just want to name it. You don’t have to do anything about it. “I just want to name and acknowledge that I’m late five minutes. I apologize. I commit to being on time. All right, let’s get started.”
One thing, though, David, that I’m not totally clear about. I mean, these are fabulous tips for helping us individually, but how does that make us a badass leader?
Great. Thank you. So the leaders that we admire tend to be people who will name what’s happening. They will name if the meeting’s flagging. They will name if they are late and recommit. They will name if they haven’t been doing a good job or if they made a mistake. They will lay out their confession mouse. “Hey, I haven’t been the best manager recently. I’ve been distracted, not giving you attention or not getting back to your emails within 24 hours. Please call me out on it, because that’s what I’m committed to.” That’s an example. I just made this up off the top of my head.
Those people, we want to follow because they are – and I just slipped in and out a couple of principles there. I slipped in commitment. I slipped in that a leader is willing to be held accountable and will ask to be held accountable. They will also, while I’m on a roll here, they will also hold others gently accountable for the things that they’ve said that they committed to and a leader will, this is what started this whole thing, will reveal appropriately and in context the whole deal of what’s happening with them. These leaders, we trust.
People say, “Oh, well, I want to be a charismatic leader. I want to be charismatic.” Well, it’s hard to just be charismatic, but if you break it down into some of these principles, one of them being revealing, this is what’s happening. And authenticity goes right in there, because that is how you be authentic as you reveal what’s going on. You don’t pretend to be interested in what someone’s saying if you’re not. You say, “Hey, I notice my attention is kind of drifting and I wonder why that is?” And you might start exploring it. Are you passionate about this? Because I’m not really picking that up as an example. Does that partly answer what is a very, very big question?
Yeah, I think you helped span that very well. And I particularly appreciate you mentioning people being revealing or transparent, that’s another great buzzword people use today, in a way that is contextual and appropriate. This isn’t a game of hide and seek. It’s about, “Look, here’s what we need to know. Here’s what’s missing, and let’s do this, people. We can do this together.” And as long as it also helps people stay focused, I think, which is something that drifts from time to time.
So, thank you so much, David. This has really been great. I appreciate your time and all you do to help us achieve more badass leadership, and recognize the mouse in the room, because I think we all have our own little harem of mice. So, that’s fair to say.
We do. And the clue is anytime something’s going really well in a relationship, look for your appreciation mice. What’s your appreciation mice and get out a piece of paper and write down five things right now that you are appreciating about the people in your life right now. Go name them with it.
You call people, you call anyone – you might not have spoken to them for five years. You call and say, “I’m just calling to appreciate you.” There’s almost no one doesn’t want to get that call. It’s a great way to reconnect with people and don’t make it up. You got to honestly find something that you appreciate about them.
And so if it’s going well, find your appreciation mice. If there’s something that’s not going well, there are mice there and particularly if you are imagining going and sharing that with someone feels edgy, then you got a really good mouse on their hands. There’s a lot of really good upside in that. And just download the one pager. Go through it. Go ahead – if it’s a really tricky one, get coaching, get coaching and do some role playing whatever before you go and do it, or if the stakes are really high.
But if not, this one page that should handle it and it’ll give you a really great roadmap. Go and say it. You never know the impact you’re going to have on the other person. I’ve had people go, “Wow, I’m so surprised you told me and I’m really glad. And now I feel inspired. Like, I’ve got a couple of things I’d like to go and name with people. I just didn’t know you could do this.” So, you’re paving the way for other people to do it.
Which is a great way to build trust and bond, and really strengthen any relationship. So kudos to you. Kudos to your book, “Mouse in the Room: Because the Elephant Isn’t Alone.”
If you’re listening and you’d like to know more about David Wood’s work and his book, The Mouse in the Room, that information, as well as a transcript of this interview, is going to be in the show notes at BusinessConfidentialRadio.com.
So, thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to tell your friends about the show and leave a positive review. We’ll be back next Thursday with another episode of Business Confidential Now. So, until then, have a great day and an even better tomorrow.
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