Employee Development

Employee talent development sounds scary to business owners and leaders, who fear that investing in an employee’s career encourages them to look for greener pastures elsewhere.

Managers will claim they don’t have time, that it’s really the employee’s responsibility, that they really can’t give employees what they want. So they’d rather ignore the situation because there’s no value in stirring the pot.

But today’s guest says that not helping employees develop and grow is a surefire way to make sure employees do leave. Does this mean you’re stuck in a no win situation? Listen to learn more.

What You’ll Discover About Employee Development:

* What employee development REALLY means

* How small conversations build engagement and inform employee development

* Why talent hording is not sustainable leadership

* How managers can start having employee development conversations if you haven’t done so before

* And much more

Guest: Julie Winkle Giulioni 

Julie Winkle Giulioni is a champion for workplace growth and development. She believes that everyone deserves the opportunity to reach their potential. And she supports organizations and leaders who want to make that happen with keynote speeches, consulting, and training.

Julie is the author of Promotions Are So Yesterday: Redefine Career Development. Help Employees Thrive and the co-author of the international bestseller, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go: Career Conversations Organizations Need and Employees Want, translated into seven languages.

She is a regular columnist for Training Industry Magazine and SmartBrief and contributes articles on leadership, career development, and workplace trends to numerous publications including The Economist.

Named by Inc. Magazine as a Top 100 Leadership Speaker, Julie’s in-person and virtual keynotes and presentations offer fresh, inspiring, yet actionable strategies for leaders who are interested in their own growth as well as supporting the growth of others.

Her firm, DesignArounds, creates and offers training products and experiences to organizations worldwide and has earned praise and awards from Human Resource Executive Magazine’s Top Ten Training Products, New York Film Festival, Brandon Hall, and Global HR Excellence Council.

Related Resources:

If you liked this interview, you might also enjoy our other Human Resources episodes.

Contact Julie and connect with her on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.

You might also enjoy Julie’s previous interview on the show: The Things Reliable Employees Need to Hear You Ask For Better Employee Career Development.

Julie’s books: Promotions Are So Yesterday: Redefine Career Development. Help Employees Thrive and Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go: Career Conversations Organizations Need and Employees Want 

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How Employee Development is the Secret Sauce to Retain Top Talent

Employee talent development sounds scary to business owners and leaders, who fear that investing in an employee’s career encourages them to look for greener pastures elsewhere. Managers will claim they don’t have time, that it’s really the employee’s responsibility, that they really can’t give employees what they want. So they’d rather ignore the situation because there’s no value in stirring the pot.

But today’s guest says that not helping employees develop and grow is a surefire way to make sure employees do leave. Does this mean you’re stuck in a no win situation? We’ll find out more when we come back. Stay tuned.

This is Business Confidential Now with Hanna Hasl-Kelchner helping you see business issues hiding in plain view that matter to your bottom line.

Welcome to Business Confidential Now, the podcast for smart executives, managers and entrepreneurs looking to improve business performance and their bottom line.

I’m your host, Hanna Hasl-Kelchner, and I am super excited to welcome Julie Winkel Giuliani back to the show. Julie is a champion for workplace growth and talent development. She believes everyone deserves the opportunity to reach their potential, and she supports organizations and leaders who want to make that happen. With keynote speeches, consulting, and training through her work at DesignArounds, a boutique learning and talent development firm she co-founded.

Julie is also the author of Promotions Are So Yesterday Redefined Career Development, Help Employees Thrive. She recently released an updated third edition of her best-selling classic, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go: Career Conversations Organizations Need and Employees Still Want that, she coauthored with Beverly Kaye. The earlier editions were actually translated into seven languages, so that covers a lot of ground.

And what a treat to have her join us now. Welcome to Business Confidential Now, Julie.

Thank you so much, Hanna. I’m delighted to be here.

It’s great to have you. Number one, congratulations on your new book, Julie. Please tell us about the changes in the business world that impacts talent development and prompted you to update your book, Help Them Grow, or Watch Them Go.

Oh, what a perfect starting point. Because when we look at Help Them Grow, or Watch Them Go, it’s kind of a classic. It’s been around for 12 years, and a lot of the fundamentals associated with how we support the development of those around us, it hasn’t really changed. And yet what has changed is the context within which development happens.

When we updated it last five years ago, the world was in a really different place, and since that time we’ve seen more downsizing, rightsizing, delayering. Many of us were scattered around the globe into remote and hybrid sort of situation. Competition has become greater than ever and more global than ever. We’ve got customer expectations that are off the charts, and then we’ve got AI and technology nipping at our heels.

And so the environment within which employees are trying to thrive and within which leaders are positioned to help them is vastly different. So we really thought this is the time to step back and bring forward the things that the constants that remain true, but then identify what are the new approaches and the things that leaders need to double down on, given the complexity and the ambiguity they find themselves in today?

Well, you just segues right into it. Julie, what are some of these new approaches that they need to adopt? Because I think it’s so difficult for some business leaders to take an active role in employee talent development.

Yeah. And one of the reasons it’s so hard, I think, for leaders to engage in meaningful talent development is because they’ve gotten really sort of wrapped around an axle. They’ve gotten a little confused about what development really is. For so long we’ve been given processes, systems, forms, and deadlines and so many leaders think, okay, if I go through the motions, if I do those steps, if I do the forms, if I hit the submit button on time, okay, my I’m done.

The development is necessary. And I don’t mean to diminish the importance of any of those things are absolutely vital. Organizations need that kind of rigor and discipline in order to engage in the manpower planning, the succession planning that this essential for organizational staff. But as I talk with people about what really moves the needle for them in terms of feeling invested in and engaged, it doesn’t have anything to do with those forms and processes.

It really boils down to the relationship and the conversations that they engage in with their manager or supervisor. And so one of the real keys of the book, and a successful development in general, is for leaders to begin to unburden themselves and realize that it’s a lot simpler than they might think, and that actually they can cover a lot of ground, support people, encourage them, connect with them, demonstrate an investment and respect through conversation.

And so what the book aspires to do is offer a structure for thinking about those conversation. Simple form, small conversations over time that ultimately build to that real sense of engagement and ultimately the development that people are still looking for.

I love that idea about having a small conversations, but I’d really like your take about the role of psychological safety to even have those small talent development conversations, because I can see how a manager might be reluctant to talk about it if they fear an employee is coming after their job, and similarly, an employee might be afraid to share their aspirations if they fear retaliation.

How do you break that talent development stalemate?

Gosh, that is so great. And I’m just thinking, Hanna, I mean, you address these tough issues in your book as well around teaching fairness, because at the core, underneath psychological safety, there’s also a fairness thread. But you’re right. It comes down to a relationship.

And when I think about it as leaders we’ve got to earn the right to mess around in something as intimate as career development, goals, dreams, and aspirations and hopes and fears. I mean, that’s not the kind of conversation that an employee is going to generously lean into if they don’t feel safe. And so from that perspective, leaders need to be really laying the foundation for the kind of safe, fair relationship that people need as that foundation.

So, things like establishing a benevolent sense of caring. Of empathy. Leaders being vulnerable themselves and honest and willing to support. How they view failure and mistakes as a learning rather than opportunities for retribution. And they need to demonstrate these kinds of behaviors over time.

So it’s not just, you know, blah blah. It’s not just words, but it’s really through their behavior that they’re demonstrating a real commitment to and a desire to foster that kind of, of psychological safety so that it goes in terms of the relationship, the safety is built on the part of the employee so that they’re willing to engage.

And the leaders have then the fodder for being able to really help people co-create paths forward that are most meaningful for them. But the other side of the coin, as you mentioned, is sometimes leaders don’t feel safe. There is that sense that, you know, in an organization that operates as a pyramid where there are fewer opportunities as you move up the ladder, there can be, in some cases for leaders, a sense of a scarcity. That if I develop them, if they get better and smarter and more effective and I give them visibility, then what does it mean in terms of my aspirations?

And so in some organizations we see a talent hoarding and a talent diminishing sort of mentality. But of course that’s not sustainable leader to keep their people small, are not able to develop and deliver the kinds of results that are necessary to distinguish them and to move them forward. So it becomes kind of a downward spiral until leaders develop more of a, I don’t know, almost an abundant mentality when it comes to talent, knowing that ultimately when they help others and lift others, it’s also a reflection on them and their leadership.

That’s very true. I like that phrase talent hoarding. Well, let’s say for a second that we have someone who realizes that maybe they could do a little bit more. They haven’t necessarily in the past. They’re a little hesitant about dipping their toe in the water. What would you recommend as a low risk way for them to start having talent development conversations with employees, if they haven’t broached the topic before? Could you give us an example of a way they could start?

Think that that’s such an important question because maybe workshops in that kind of thing, managers, and leaders, they frequently think, well, I can just go straight into these really meaty deep, you know, what makes life worth living to you conversations. And if you don’t have that kind of a psychologically safe rapport or relationship, folks are not going to open up.

And so what I frequently recommend is rather than starting with the individual and their hope, their dreams, their aspirations, what they like, and what they don’t like, what they want to do. All of that stuff that falls into what I refer to as hindsight rather than going there, because that gets a little personal, a little vulnerable. Folks might not be ready.

Another way to start leading into career conversations is with another part of the conversation, which we refer to as foresight. Helping people look outward and forward at the workplace, the environment. What are the needs? What’s changing demographically, environmentally, geopolitically, whatever it might be that create the space within which relevant, viable careers can grow.

And if we start by talking about what’s going on, what are the needs of the business, that’s more of an external, sort of objective sort of conversation that starts to get people thinking a little bit strategically about what the future looks like and how they might want to start thinking and positioning themselves for long term success. And the beauty of these foresight conversations is that we can actually do it with the team.

So whereas, you know, the hindsight, the more personal conversations you reserve for the one on one, you can start talking about these bigger picture issues with the larger group and help them be better business partners, to elevate their business acumen while also laying the foundation for, okay, this is the landscape within which careers can develop so that then when you start having those hindsight conversations, that intersection bubbled up as opportunities for insight and a path forward.

It’s a great opportunity for some joint problem solving that also gives rise to some talent development. So I think that’s really great. In your experience, Julie, what are some mistakes you’ve seen leaders make when it comes to talent development?

I mean, besides not doing it, but as they attempt to do it and then they just really put their foot in their mouth kind of thing, things that they should maybe be careful about and avoid that would sabotage the effort.

Well, it’s funny you did read my mind because not doing it was definitely at the top of my list. There are a couple of common mistakes that folks make, and to be honest, the mistakes are coming out of really good intention, just poorly executed.

So one of the big mistakes that I see is leaders, managers making assumptions about what people want. They’re projecting their ambition, their goals, their interests on those around them.

And so they make an assumption that this employee wants to move up the corporate ladder and move forward, pushing that person in the direction that they think the person wants to go without really having the conversation and learning from that person’s own words what the truth is about their goals, what success looks like to them, the kind of relationship that they want to have with their work.

And so one big problem, I think is just acting off of our assumptions rather than doing the due diligence through conversation to figure out what each individual tweet is. And then the other big mistake that I see a lot, and again, coming from the best of intentions, is being too helpful, doing it for the person.

Even if you have the conversation, you learn what they want. Then you decide that the leader, what they should be doing, what steps they should take, what the action plan should look like, who they should talk to, how they move this forward and pushing them toward your solution to their problem or their opportunity.

And of course, when we do that, folks don’t have buy in for that action plan if they’re not co-creating it, if they’re not putting a little bit of elbow grease into what that looked like, they’re not going to have the ownership. But then also when a leader assigned something to someone, even if the intention is that it’s for development, it becomes more work. It falls into a different category in the employees brain.

And so being too helpful, solving the problems for them can backfire and cause people to actually push back against what otherwise, you know, had they been involved in co-creating, it might have been a great solution.

So what are the ideal conversations to have Julie?

In the book, we’ve got this hindsight, foresight, and insight framework that acts as a bit of a roadmap or gives leaders a bit of a framework for thinking about that. And so some of the conversations they mentioned before, they’re hindsight. They’re about helping people look inward, backward, getting a really clear understanding of who people are and what they love and what they want to do, what kind of relationship they want with their work.

It’s all that kind of that repository of foundation information that you need to make sure that you’re not imposing your assumptions and projections and that kind of thing on others. And so go with a really curious conversation that are imbalanced in terms of leaders asking the questions. And then the airtime is all on the on the employee to share their perspective.

And again, it doesn’t have to all be done at one time. This can be done iteratively. You can deconstruct career development. Do a little bit over time and layer this information in a way that makes it even more meaningful. So hindsight becomes that important. Foundation. Foresight is the outward, forward looking, the reality check to make sure that we’re not pursuing something that is not going to be relevant going forward.

I think about the number of jobs that we’re doing today that we’re not going to be doing in just a handful of years, and the number of jobs that haven’t been invented yet. You think about, like the role of AI prompt engineer that wasn’t on our radar screen a year ago, and now it’s hot, hot, hot, and so forth type conversations.

So what’s going on in the environment? What are customers asking for? How is our competition changing and responding differently? All of that kind of builds that bigger perspective.

And then the real conversations are when we bring those together, where what people love and want to do overlaps with what are the needs of the organization and where is the world going. That’s where we get to really mine that gold for possibilities and actions and learnings and ways to move that forward.

And so leaders have the opportunity to engage in each of these three kinds of conversations in order to bring them together into more cohesive conversations as well but move the individual forward from awareness to motivation to action.

That’s a great framework. Thank you for sharing that. I particularly like the comment you made about not assuming your own preferences and trying to impose that on employees. I think that there could be a real landmine in there, especially if they represent biases like age bias. Well, they’re too old to learn that technology or gender biases. Well, that’s a man’s job, that kind of thing. So yeah, that’s really important. And I’m glad you raised that.

One of the things that some of our listeners may be concerned about, if they’re not larger organizations, smaller business owners may not have an HR department. What would you like them to know about talent development?

Even in a large organization, I would say talent development really fundamentally lives with the leader. The leader is the person who can the best possible position to partner with employees to support their growth, so large or small. Every leader owes it to him or herself to really figure out how can I support the growth of those around them.

And when you don’t have a large HR or support system around you, there might be some additional tasks that you need to take on, and you might not have the thought partner to help you think through that. Which means then, as leaders we need to band together and develop a support system.

Looking around the organization for those who are doing it well, getting their best practices and maybe even in some cases, again in smaller organizations there may not be as many upward mobility, opportunity, and opportunities for growth within a given department. So looking to and partnering with colleagues in other parts of the organization to see how might we share talent, how might we swap resources.

And in service of allowing folks to enjoy the kind of growth and development that they’re looking for, so they’ll stay engaged and stay within the organization.

Very good, very good. Now, your new release here, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go. What’s the best way to use that book? What would you want readers to take away from it the most?

I think it’s a very small book. So the good news is it’s a very quick scan, sort of read to get the big ideas. And then it also serves as a really good reference guide. Inside the book, we’ve got one hundred questions that readers can ask in terms of hindsight, foresight, insight to drive the conversation forward. So I think it’s, you know, a kind of a traditional book, where get the idea.

But then it’s a resource and there are worksheets and templates in there as well that help to guide the reader to using it. For this edition too, I’m really excited we’ve developed the Help Them Grow book bot as well that readers are able to access. It’s a custom GPT that lets folks use the resources I supported to actually plan conversations.

Readers who go through the book can then go in, and they can rehearse the conversation with the bot before doing it in real time with the employee, and they can assess their skills. These and brainstorming around development activities that might help keep people engaged and growing and other things as well.

And so using the book and then extending it into applying it and preparing to use it in real life through the book bot, I think it’s going to be a really helpful way for leaders to kind of work out the kinks before they do that in real time with their staff.

That is awesome. I mean, first of all, having the questions, but the book bot, what a fabulous idea to be able to role play and get some feedback. I think that’s really going to be a great confidence booster that really enhances the value of the book tremendously.

Thank you Julie. I mean, this is awesome, as usual. I appreciate your time and those neat insights about talent development, the kind of conversations we need to have.

If you’re listening and you’d like to know more about Julie Winkel Giulioni and her firm DesignArounds, and especially her new book, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go: Career Conversations Organizations Need and Employees Still Want that information, as well as a transcript of this interview can be found in the show notes at BusinessConfidentialRadio.com.

Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to tell your friends about the show and leave a positive review. We’ll be back next week with another information packed episode of Business Confidential Now.

So until then, have a great day and an even better tomorrow.

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