What To Consider When Evaluating Your Start Up Business Ideas With Prof. Ted Zoller

 

Do you have some start up business ideas? Can entrepreneurship be your ticket to fame and fortune? It worked for Mark Zuckerberg. Why not you? If the thought of starting your own business has ever crossed your mind, you’ve got startup fever. Join host Hanna Hasl-Kelchner as she welcomes Professor Ted Zoller. He has a prescription for how to achieve more entrepreneurial success and tips for how to separate the start up business ideas from the losers.

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What You’ll Discover About Start Up Business Ideas:

• Why entrepreneurship requires more than good start up business ideas.
• How successful entrepreneurs solve problems in a sophisticated and complete way.
• The value of co-creating solutions with your customers.
• Why accepting failure is a necessary part of testing and refining your start up business ideas.
• The magic formula that catapults your start up business ideas into the winner’s circle.
• The deal making research you need to find the ideal investors for your venture.
• Why an advisory board is a critical rite of passage for your start up.
• How to recruit the right advisory board without being “salesy.”
• And MUCH MORE.

GUEST

Professor Ted Zoller is the Director of the Center for Entrepreneurial Studies and T.W. Lewis Clinical Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship in the Kenan-Flagler Business School at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.  The Center is a leading, a nationally-ranked, entrepreneurship program focused on growth venturing and entrepreneurial leadership.

He is also President of the United States Association for Small Business and Entrepreneurship, the largest American association of academics and practitioners dedicated exclusively to entrepreneurship.

As a senior fellow at the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, Ted is engaged in core strategies of the foundation in the area of entrepreneurship, and serves as an active practicing entrepreneur.

Unlike other entrepreneurs, he approaches start up business ideas from multiple perspectives, as a business professor, as a practicing entrepreneur, as an investor, board member, and founder of three organizations: CommonWeal, OpenRange and Launch Chapel Hill.

Ted meshes the theoretical with the practical to provide integrated strategies. It’s extremely powerful.

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RELATED RESOURCES

Contact Ted and connect with him on LinkedIn and Twitter.

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What To Consider When Evaluating Your Start Up Business Ideas With Prof. Ted Zoller

Can entrepreneurship be your ticket to fame and fortune? Work for Mark Zuckerberg. If you have got startup fever, stay tuned because my next guest, Dr. Ted Zoller, has a prescription for entrepreneurial success and how to separate the winning startup ideas from the losers.

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Dr. Ted Zoller’s mission is to help entrepreneurs be successful, and he does it in multiple ways. He is the Director of the Center for Entrepreneurial Studies and T.W. Lewis Clinical Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship in the Kenan Flagler School of Business at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. The center is a leading nationally-ranked entrepreneurship program focused on growth venturing and entrepreneurial leadership. Ted is also President of the United States Association for Small Business and Entrepreneurship. It is the largest American association of academics and practitioners dedicated exclusively to entrepreneurship.

As if that were not enough, Ted is also a Senior Fellow at the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, engaged in core strategies of the foundation in the area of entrepreneurship and serves as an active practicing entrepreneur. What I loved most about his background is how he approaches entrepreneurship from multiple perspectives as a business professor, a practicing entrepreneur, and even as an investor, Board Member, and Founder of three organizations, Commonweal, OpenRange, and Launch Chapel Hill. He meshes the theoretical with the practical to provide integrated strategies. That is extremely powerful, which is why I am so delighted to have him join us here.

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Welcome to the show, Ted.

Thank you so much, Hanna. I am delighted to be with you.

This is terrific. I do not always have an opportunity to speak with somebody that has this diverse background. I am excited about it. Entrepreneurship is such a hot topic. I am wondering, in your experience, what is the best way for someone who is thinking about starting a business to prepare for entrepreneurship? What do you recommend they do first? Where do they start?

Some people feel like they can’t become an entrepreneur. When they look in the mirror, they do not see a founder. It usually starts with a question and a problem. Many people think, “I need to have a great idea.” The truth is all they have to see is some kind of issue or problem they would like to solve. I find that entrepreneurship is generally not about creating a good idea. It is about solving a problem in a sophisticated and complete way.

Let’s dig into that a little bit more. Talk about what you need in order to dig into that problem and be sophisticated about it.

I find that early-stage founders oftentimes understudy the idea. They do not take the time to understand the problem. They do not study it with vigor. I find that serial entrepreneurs, people that have had success over the duration of their career, take problems in a sophisticated way. They will look carefully at the customer’s need or the problem that needs to be solved.

 

They will not just provide a Band-Aid but will provide a total solution. They will cure the problem. They might attack it in many different ways called the Pivot. In many ways, what we are talking about are different approaches to the same problem. You can stack a solution to a complex problem are usually the ones that break out and become successful. The ones to cover the surface of the problem typically are not.

Could you give me an example of that?

There are many apps out there and when you look into some of the apps, many people reading regret that $0.99 they spent on an app that they have never used again, but then there are other apps that are a complete solution that manages their health, time, and approach towards their work. These are the ones that become indispensable. Those are the ones that become current, accepted, and currently what a customer wants. They will pay for it and spend time with it. In a sophisticated way, generally, we will build a total solution that becomes the market standard and key driver in the market.

If I hear you correctly, the total solution, going into some of the nooks and crannies, not just a one-and-done type answer to a problem, is one of the keys to long-term entrepreneurial success.

Frankly, it is not a short process. They examine and study the market, understand how people behave, and understand people’s sentiments, like their orientation towards the solution, before you start to conceptualize the product or service that you are looking to offer. By understanding the total solution, its implications in the market, and how it connects to other things that are already out there, you are going to create a more complete solution that customers will accept.

It turns out that entrepreneurs find themselves, in many cases, solving part of the problem and they leave opportunities on the table as a consequence. By digging in deeper, studying that problem much more carefully, and understanding the full impact of their solutions, they can come up with something much better than they originally could see.

People think it has to be something that comes out of their resource or main power. It is much more involved in that co-creation with your customer by asking what they want and trying to get a sense of how the customer might perceive your solution. You have to barter and trade for that solution. What will they pay for? The things that will drive the difference between a one-done entrepreneur and someone who thinks of the distance.

This whole idea of the overnight success is this pop-culture feel that, “Yeah, it is going to happen.” Somewhere between the 1st semester and 2ns semester, there is going to be this amazing thing that goes viral, and by the time somebody graduates, they are going to retire. What do you think about the overnight success? Is it possible?

 

Entrepreneurship is generally not about creating a good idea. It's about solving a problem in a very sophisticated and complete way. Share on X

 

I was talking to an entrepreneur who was a friend of Mark Zuckerberg. He is talking about the Zucc. I talk about it almost like the Zucc distortion. I have to admit, we are going through an unparalleled period in our society. Our world has gone global and digital. As a consequence, there are opportunities in front of this generation that could not even be conceived by our parents and our grandparents. Business opportunities and business models that are available to entrepreneurs could not have been launched years ago.

We are dealing with an unparalleled opportunity. It is an opportunity to do things that are big, like what someone wants in the first round and now what is happening in the Millennial entrepreneurial generation. My sense is that is probably the wrong approach to building a long-term serial entrepreneurial career.

You have to be thinking about the impact of what you are trying to do and be committed and diligent in the problem you are looking to solve. It is usually not a one-and-done type of situation. It is not an overnight success or a billion-dollar valuation. It is the folks that are right around you now and the people that are entrepreneurs that surround you that are making a difference every day in people’s lives.

In order to do this type of research, prepare, and have the commitment and the skillset to go with it, what are your thoughts about the need for formal education because some of these successful entrepreneurs did not complete college. That encourages folks to say, “I can do it.” They got this burning desire and entrepreneurial fever. Is that a smart thing to do?

The university of Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg was a different university than what we have now. Universities understand the impact of entrepreneurship and are starting to incorporate it into their coursework centrally. Where I am at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill is a core value of the university now.

I would argue first that the universities had transformed and never responded to a change in the market. The truth of the matter is if you do not have a first to market pressure, in other words, if your concept would benefit from you take some more time with it before we launch it and you switch gears to become a founder, you are better off holding your powder and finishing your education and becoming a complete leader.

My sense is that the big issues that need to be solved require people that are fully formed. If you drop out of school, chances are you do not have the tools to understand the problems that we are facing in society, nor do you have the tools to build excellent solutions, so I counsel my students all the time that are facing these issues every day, “Do you stay in school?” The first question I ask is, “If you stay in school, will you still have an opportunity when you graduate? If the answer to the question is no, then let’s take a break or leave and see if you can get it to a certain point. The market will tell you whether or not you are intended to stay in school.”

I coach my students every day to try to remain committed to their degree path and complete their education, notwithstanding the market pressure. This is the friction that paid off as the challenges faced by Millennial entrepreneurs because it is not terrible all the time. It is an amazing transformation that is occurring in how people live in the way that we work.

 

It is an amazing transformation, but how can you respond to the students that say, “I do not have the money for tuition. Tuition being so high as it is now, I do not want to be in a position of having a startup, regardless of which stage of startup I am, probably pre-revenue, and have a huge student loan debt on top of that?” How do you counsel someone in that situation for the resources that might be available to become more fully formed, as you put it?

It is an interesting challenge that people face. As the cost of tuition goes up, that is a natural question people should ask. You have to look at the value of that education, but I got to admit when Peter Thiel got out there and said, “I am going to pay students to leave school to start the ventures,” that was misguided in many ways because you are not confident that the person has had the preparation to be successful over the long haul. The false dichotomy formed by Peter Thiel is not a choice. Do I graduate or do I do the venture? Why can’t you do both? I built a program at UNC Chapel Hill that makes that choice mute. There is no reason to make that choice.

You can build your company while you are in school. We have an amazing innovation environment that we built here at Carolina that is focused on helping students to conceptualize, and we even have a facility that accelerates those ideas called Launch Chapel Hill. It is to take those ideas to the next level and build the company while they are in school, so they are prepared for the day they graduate to launch. I have also had a few students accelerate their studies and find different ways to graduate. I got to admit. My record is 100% of this point. We have had many successful entrepreneurs in our program who had graduated from the University of North Carolina.

That is fabulous to have a winning formula like that. I am sure in the process of building that program, you have also seen some of the surprises that entrepreneurs encounter as they are trying to launch their businesses. Could you share some of those with us?

The entrepreneurial process is like a rollercoaster. There are days that you are flying high and there are days when you are hitting the bottom of the track. In the early days of an entrepreneurial venture, up and down are common. It is a process. People talk about this risk, but the truth is it is euphoria and a deep low. It happens to the high modulation.

I have to coach my students, many of whom have never experienced what the entrepreneurial process is all about. The entrepreneurial process is basically accepting failure as a common model. Every day you are getting the answer or hearing that the market may not accept what you think is a great idea. That is the adaptation. I asked them to turn the rock into the teacher. The market is telling you what I want. Listen, try to adapt, and build a model based on that feedback.

I did get a sense of the data that shows you a pattern, respond and adapt to that pattern, and build your next iteration based on that pattern. Students face problems every day. I have had a student go out to California and get some funding in Southern California, not in the Bay Area. It has been successful doing a product called Community Gift.

Community Gift is making birthday visits or a special event for people. The Founder, Thomas Dejan, was facing one of the challenges of, “Do I graduate or do I finish Community Gift?” He was driven to finish Community Gift. We figured out a way that he is to graduate now in May 2022. Community Gift is being launched.

 

There are two or three degrees of separation between you and the person that will make your success. Build your social capital. Share on X

 

It is going to change the world in the way that birthdays are conceived to support people who can’t have those types of events is the ultimate. That experience was filled with setbacks and challenges in years. That becomes an everyday event for an entrepreneur. You have got to actually become tough and let that stuff roll right off. When you hear no, it is part of the process.

No could mean maybe not yet, or maybe not in this form. It does not mean that I never want to see you again. I know that you have done some interesting research in the area of deal-making networks. Tell me about that.

I had some research focused on syndication and how investors find connections to founders. In 2009, after the financial crisis, I noticed that a lot of my successful founders had difficulty getting access to capital. I taught that the investors, in many cases, were hiding at Barkley because they were afraid to rest there. They did not know what was going on, and there was some risk in the market. They were not willing to take the chance. There must be a better way to find the investors who are best suited to make an investment in a particular deal. I thought maybe big data would be the solution.

Before you search for the investor based on their past history that best suits my project and investment opportunity, I developed an algorithm called the Dealmakers, an algorithm that focuses on social network investing. We look specifically at the nature of their past investment in history and other connected other people. The notion is that you can send the right investor at the right time for your project.

That sounds terrific. How do you make these stars line up?

A big piece of it is trying to first understand who the people that have done these projects are. What is the pay proposition to the entrepreneur? You are getting too much more skilled and facile entrepreneurs who have already been around there. The investors become partners of yours. They help you access not only future investment but also partners that are, for instance, corporations or channels that can help build your company.

They develop routines that allow you to skip over some of the big challenges you might have. They smarten you up more quickly and get you on your path to success much more rapidly. As a result, Dealmakers are individuals who are super serial entrepreneurs. These are people that are on 3, 4, 5, or 6 different investments over time. They might have started 5 or 6 companies themselves.

They generally know that market dead gold. These are the individuals that do open upgrade opportunities for first-time founders. I invite my founders to look carefully for the folks that have been involved in your market, who are the mavens in your market, and invite them into your advisory board, trying to get access to them, try to get your project in front of them no matter where they are geographical. They are likely not even in your community. They are probably in another location but find the folks that can help you drive your venture to the next level. Use your social network to the greatest extent. Do not waste your time on who you know. It has got to be focused on who knows.

 

What is your recommendation for being able to find these people? You may have got your social network, but that could be diverse in terms of how connected they are. Maybe they are not connected, especially if somebody is a student and not that connected with the business world.

First, start with the data. Try to find the individuals who you know are the actors in your marketplace, no matter where they are. Put yourself in a position where you can shoot yourself out of your comfort zone. It is not just about the people that are around you who you know, your friends, your colleagues, or your immediate social network.

There are 2 or 3 degrees of separation between you and the person that will make your success. Build your social capital by first getting credible people immediately around you to understand your goals for the company and bring them into the life of your advisory board, maybe temporary advisors, to lend some credibility to what you are doing. Put yourself in a position that you get on the road and go talk to people who have done this before.

Go to trade shows and big industry events, try to demo wherever you are, find opportunities to get in front of these folks, make presentations, and build it into your PR and marketing strategy. Frankly, it is calling out people, finding that one connection that connected to the next person as a bridge to get in front of the right person. That is the key. Do not waste your precious time on people that are not going to move the needle.

Try to spend the same amount of networking time, so you get a bigger bang for your buck or the right people as opposed to the people that are in your immediate referral network. There are ways to build your social capital profile. The first way is to probably build credibility by inviting people on your advisory board who know the market. You will be surprised. Senior people want to be part of the story. They want to live their lives curiously through you. If they believe in your venture and in you, they typically will join your advisory board.

In your experience, the advisory board is the key to opening the door and having that next meeting with someone who can be more influential. Is that right?

That is right. You are building the credibility of your venture and you are trying to develop a great amount of expertise that will help you learn your way and path into the market. It will also establish a rite of passage as you evolve the venture to the next level.

Any suggestions on how to do this without appearing salesy? I know some people may have great ideas and their heart is all in the right place, but there could be a genuine need in the marketplace. This whole idea of asking for help and doing it in a way that does not feel like super salesy with the big pitch and everything is what turns them off sometimes. What do you advise there?

It's very important that you develop your capital strategy in a way that will allow you to break out. Share on X

 

Sales is the wrong approach. Sales, I got to admit, is a key piece to entrepreneurship, but when you are building relationships like what I am talking about, it is actually not sales. It is business development. It is much more consultative and more based on the argument. You have to have your homework done because experts will see you right through since they have not researched well. Approach them from the standpoint of your passion, what you are trying to accomplish, the qualifications, what you have looked to build, and the quality of the innovation itself. You will be surprised how many people will want to be part of the story because they see the answers to those questions.

Those are great criteria. I appreciate that. Over the years, you have seen some great business ideas and plans that have probably gone nowhere. Some may be average ideas that have gone on to make money and become wildly successful. What, in your opinion, separates the winners from the losers?

Solopreneurship is a big problem in the market now for some reason because we celebrate the great athlete, the terrific entrepreneur, all those disruptions, and the Mark Zuckerberg effect. We do not realize that building a great venture starts with building a great team. Across the board, building an A-team is the driver to success.

The solopreneur needs to quickly build the right skills within their team and bring the right people in to implement and execute the venture. The second thing is the passion for execution. A lot of people stop short of trying to find the market fit. They build a solution that is actually a great solution to the market, but they do not think they are going to execute on that market opportunity through either B2B or B2C channels.

Either they have to develop a sales capability or develop a partnership. Many entrepreneurs do not have the ability to talk to partners. I would easily say that many more entrepreneurial ventures if they are successful because they have established early, highly credible, legitimate partners that can help telegraph their brand and help give them a distribution advantage.

The third, I would argue, would be to make sure that you raise money from the right folks. Oftentimes, people make the mistake of getting in with early angel investors that are qualified, can’t syndicate to the next round, and can’t bring in the next investors. As a consequence, they ended up stunting their own growth because there was no second round and no future source of funding. It is important that you develop your capital strategy in a way that will allow you to break out.

That means that the investors you take on the A level will likely recruit the investor that the C level if needed. The expansion investors will be recruited by those people. In order to have that happen, you have to think about the quality of the investors you are bringing in. Never short your responsibilities in terms of bringing the highest quality people on your own team, your advisors, and your investors. That is the magic formula in my mind.

It is interesting because in order to coordinate and synchronize all of those people, that is going to require a management skill level and also project management skills that need to be developed.

It is true. There is also one other level that tends to overlook the importance of being able to speak to senior executives and individuals of power. It is critical that you have someone who is skilled in business development on your team who can talk to the Intel from the IBMs and Apples. They are just another partner.

They would have the confidence to be able to get in the door of those actors, establish credibility, and build partnerships so that you can ultimately have a successful trajectory. Do not shortchange the importance of being able to communicate to the partners who probably are much bigger than you, at a much higher valuation than you, and are much more sophisticated. They might not be as bright and adaptable. That is why they are interested in talking to you.

You would be bringing in an innovative opportunity for them, but you have to be able to play on their level. That is challenging because oftentimes, those people are well compensated. They are usually experienced, but you would be surprised that some people want to do the new venture growth and development phase of a new business as opposed to being involved in a mature business. Many people I meet who are skilled executives get bored when they are at that growth execution stage. They want to go back and build. These are the people that create and bring them into your venture.

After all, when speaking to these big companies and if you have got a solution to their problem, that makes their life easier. That makes that individual more successful within their organization so it can be a win-win all around.

That is the right way to think about it. You are building reciprocity between you and your partner, you and your customer, and you and your investor. The whole idea is to align all of those partners into one framework so that you are able to bring them all together. It is like creating an orchestra. You are the conductor and everyone has to play in the right harmony to make that music. You want to align all those incentives so that, ultimately, you can drive your venture to success.

You are the composer, the conductor, the recruiter, and the producer of all the musicians. It takes a unique set of skills. I am glad to know that more universities and programs, such as the center that you lead, are providing the kind of framework that allows people to start thinking in those terms instead of winging it. I am grateful to see that.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that the partnership now is in the mainstream. Several years ago, entrepreneurship at a university was on the periphery. Leadership now nationally has brought up leadership to the forefront. They recognize that the leaders of the future need to have an entrepreneurial mindset for that to be successful over the years, the corporate structure where the model of our parents and our grandparents have broken down, and people will be changing careers multiple times in their lives. In order to do that, too, they have learned to adapt.

They have got to learn to stick on their feet. Instinctively, they have got to learn to become entrepreneurial. No matter if you are founding a company as a new enterprise or if you are within a larger company, it needs to be transformed. Entrepreneurship is about change and solutions. A university is very much about those same things. It is how you build change in a meaningful way and the leadership that is needed to take our society to the next level. That is why it is so easy to do my job every day. I had the best job. Next to the basketball coach in the peak season, I got the best job at Carolina.

You have got such a fascinating career. I am curious as to how you gravitated to this whole area of entrepreneurship because it is hot now, but when you were in your student’s position back then, it was not as big an issue. It was probably needed, but you are right. The world has changed so much. The internet has made opportunities possible that could not even be conceived of years ago. Tell me what influenced your career path, some of the decisions, and some of your thought processes? Could you share one influencer with us that was significant in guiding your success?

This is important to me because whoever is reading has the same affliction to learn from my experience. I thought when I was a young person, I was the smartest guy in the room. I thought that I had to master everything in order to become successful. I have achieved like a lot of our young people do now. I made all the classical hoops easy. I ended up doing well in school and so forth.

I realized that that was not exactly the formula for success as an entrepreneur. I worked for a great entrepreneur who told me after a while, “Do you know what your problem is, Zoller? You think you know everything. You will never be a great entrepreneur as long as you think you know everything because then, you are relying on just yourself to be successful.”

Robert McNamara built Pentagon’s leadership under President Kennedy. He was the CEO of Ford Motor Company. He said, “It is more important to know what you do not know than what you know.” That was a mantra for me as a young man. I realized that knowing everything was not the key to success. It was knowing what I didn’t know that was more important and having the confidence to be comfortable around what I didn’t know, and not being afraid of what I didn’t know.

I was not scalable as long as I thought I had to know everything because there is no way one individual can command knowledge and awareness of every arena of what they would need to do to solve a problem. You have to rely on others to solve that problem. In fact, you are generally an entrepreneur, not the most intelligent person. You are the best integrator and the person who brings people together. You are building a great team.

 

 

What makes you scalable is knowing what you do not know, being comfortable with what you do not know, and being prepared to take the risk. I learned early on in my life that I want to share this with the readers who are facing the same reflection that I had as a young person. I thought I had to be the smartest person in the room to be the most successful. That is false. I learned early on from my entrepreneurial colleagues that knowing what you know is important, but knowing what you do not know is important. That is a quote from Robert McNamara.

He ran the McNamara Whiz Kids for President Kennedy. That quote says it all. If you rely on what you know, you are un-scalable as an entrepreneur. What that means is, like a lot of young people, if you achieve, you suffer the challenge of not having the tools to fully solve a problem because you are relying only on your own wits to make that happen.

Successful entrepreneur knows what they do not know. They are comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty. They embrace risk. That is scalable because, ultimately, the arena of opportunity for entrepreneurship begins without uncertainty. It is being comfortable with what you do not know and then turning it into a tool that becomes your catalyst for growth.

These are the things that drive a successful entrepreneur is a general comfort, “I am the solution to that problem. I do not know much about it but I am prepared to take a good shot at it. I am going to bring the best people to bear to help me solve that problem.” That is usually the thought process of an entrepreneur. It is not, “I need to understand it fully myself and I have to come up with the solution myself.”

It is because either of them is scalable. You are relying on that one individual. You have to build a tribe around the problem and ultimately develop a network of people that are going to help you solve that problem, so you bring your powers. That can only be done by the common comfortable with uncertainty and realizing that accepting rescue is part of the process of being an entrepreneur.

It beautifully dovetails with the mission of the show if you have realized that because in McNamara’s quote about it is more important to know what you do not know than you do know, the premise of the show is that there are all these little nooks and crannies within running a business. Especially as you scale a business that you can’t know it all, and to bring experts such as yourself aboard in order to help guide people, provide tips, provide some strategies, and some information to get them thinking and raise their awareness about these issues before they hurt their business.

Eventually, it does. Things that work in the early startup phases do not necessarily work as processes and procedures as a business starts to scale and grow. You get past the friends and family stage, bringing in new employees who do not have the same experiences and may not have the full commitment that you do. After all, it is your baby.

That is when little things start to happen that can generate conflict and divert your attention away from the things that you want to do with your business, which is helping your customers solve problems. We are trying to help shorten the learning curve. It was one of those things that I am so delighted that you could spend some time with us and share these thoughts. I am sure they are going to help people who are interested in being entrepreneurs. They are just not quite sure how to grapple and wrestle with the whole process. You have shed some light on that and I am grateful for your insights. Thanks so much for your time, Ted. This has been fabulous.

I would love to leave you with one thought. A solopreneur will hit a wall, and a great entrepreneurial team will scale the wall. I have seen teams walk right through the wall. It has been a real delight to be with you, Hanna. Thank you for this opportunity to share these ideas.

Thank you.

 

Important Links

• The Kenan-Flagler Entrepreneurship Center
• Kenan Flagler School of Business
• United States Association for Small Business and Entrepreneurship
• Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation
• Launch Chapel Hill
• https://www.LinkedIn.com/in/tedzoller/
• https://Twitter.com/Ted_Zoller
• https://www.Kenan-Flagler.unc.edu/faculty/directory/ted-zoller/
• The Crazy Journey From Business Startup To Reality TV With Mike Whiteside And Robert Kulp – previous episode
• If you liked this interview you might also like these Entrepreneurship episodes

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